Refutation of so called logical arguments over the narration of Malik Al Dar
Quote:
" Narration of Malik al Dar, evidence for Tawassul by the living & not by the Prophet after his death
[...]
The incident mentioned in the narration of Malik al Dar happened during the Khilafah of Umar radiyallahu anhu, during the time of drought, and so did the incident of Umar bin al Khattab’s (radiyallahu anhu) tawassul through the Prophet’s (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) uncle, Al Abbas radiyallahu anhu.
I have come across many discussions in regards to this narration, and all of them were concentrating on the “authenticity” of the narration, discussing its chain.
But I have not come across any discussions on the text of the hadith itself, the story,
except for some quotes here and there from some current shaikhs, sited in ahl alhadith forum, and those 2 or 3 points mentioned by those shaikhs led me to research the story of the hadith in classical books of past scholars, and I have found it very interesting and informative.
The things I discovered and read show a totally different understanding of the hadith, than what is understood by many Muslims today including some scholars, it only needs for one to go deep and see where the scholars of the past quoted the narration, in which chapter and what they said before quoting it to understand the real meaning of the hadith.
I will go straight to the points that I have regarding the text and storyof this narration of Malik al Dar. After that I will mention some logical arguments in reply to the ones who use this narration as evidence for tawasul that is “asking the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) to make duaa to Allah for us AFTER HIS DEATH.
The text of the narration:
It is related from Malik al-Dar, `Umar’s treasurer, that the people suffered a drought during the time of `Umar (his khilafah), whereupon a man came to the grave of the Prophet and said: “O Messenger of Allah, ask for rain for your Community, for verily they have but perished,” after which the Prophet appeared to him in a dream and told him: “Go to `Umar and give him my greeting, then tell him that they will be watered. Tell him: You must be clever, you must be clever!” The man went and told `Umar. The latter said: “O my Lord, I spare no effort except in what escapes my power!”"
Scholars’ understanding of this narration
1. Hafidh Ibn Hajar al Asqalani -rahimahu Allah- in his books “Fath al Bari” (vol 3 pg. 441):
He sites it in chapter “The people asking the Imam to do istisqa’ in times of drought,” in the chapter heading section, in which he quotes ahadith that have relevance to the chapter heading, and that connect it with hadiths that come under that chapter.
Amongst those narrations he mentions the narration of Malik al Dar, and he only quotes part of the narration, he stops at “go to Umar”. He used this as evidence that people ask the imam to do istisqa (ask for rain) for them in times of drought.
He didn’t mention the rest of the hadith because it has nothing to do with the chapter heading, he only quoted what he believed fits the chapters title, for he says at the end of the section, after mentioning this narration:
“From all of this appears the relevance of the chapter heading to the origin of this story“
so, al Hafidh Ibn Hajar rahimahu Allah understood from this hadith that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was directing the man to go ask the Imam, during that time (Umar radiyallahu anhu), to do istisqa’ for them.
2. Hafidh Ibn Kathir -rahimahu Allah-:
He sites it in his book “al Bidayah wan Nihaya ” (vol7 pg.104 ),in which he mentions some narrations, right before he mentions Malik ad Dar’s narration, which explain the meaning of the narration.
The narrations before it are by Sayf Ibn Umar, and in them is the mentioning of Umar radiyallahu anhu, after hearing about the man’s dream (who is said to be Bilal al Harith), asking the people on the minbar if they have seen anything bad from him, and then he tells them about the dream that Bilal saw, so they told him:
“Bilal has spoken the truth, so make istiqatha (seek or ask for help) to Allah, then the Muslims”. So then Umar radiyallahu anhu does istisqa’ through al Abbas radiyallahu anhu.
In the second narration, they said “he found you slow in doing istisqa’, so do istisqa’ for us “, so he did.
(Note: these 2 narrations could be weak, but the point is that al Hafidh Ibn Kathir rahimahu Allah mentioned them right before the narration of Malik, showing what it is about, which shows what he understood it to mean, same as what Ibn Hajar (r A) understood from it).
3. Ala’ ad Deen Ali al Mutaqi al Hindi al Burhan Furi (d. 975) in his book “Kanz al Ummal“:He sites it in chapter of (salat al Istisqa’ - prayer for rain), and what the man did at the grave of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was asking for dua, not istisqa' prayer, and salat al Istisqa' was done by Umar radiyallahu anhu, when he made tawassul through Al Abbas radiyallahu anhu, thus both narrations are connected to each other, as shown in the previous points.
Conclusion: That the story of Malik al Dar’s narration is connected to the hadith about Umar’s tawassul through al Abbas, all leading to doing istisqa’ through the living, and not through the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam after his death.
Narrations with an addition
There are narrations of the same story, with an addition, if they are authentic (the authenticiy is not known to me so far), they would give very strong support to the understanding of the above scholars.
and it also shows what the scholars who sited the narrations believed the narration to mean.- Imam Ibn Abd al Bar al Maliki in his book “al Isti’ab fi ma’rifat al As-hab”:
The people suffered a drought during the time of ‘Umar (his khilafah), whereupon a man came to the grave of the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) and said:”O Messenger of Allah, ask for rain for your Community, for verily they have but perished,” after which the Prophet appeared to him in a dream and told him: “Go to ‘Umar and tell him to do istisqa’ (ask Allah for rain) for the people, and that they will be watered. And tell him: You must be clever, you must be clever!” So, the man went and told ‘Umar, and Umar cried and said “O my Lord, I spare no effort except in what escapes my power!”
- Ahmad Abdullah at Tabari (d. 694 ) in his book “ar Riyadh
Anas bin Malik narrated:
The people suffered drought during Umar’s time, whereupon a man came to teh grave of the Prophet (Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam), and said: “O Messenger of Allah, ask for rain for your community, for verily they have but perished,”, he said so the Messenger of Allah came to him in a dream and told him “Go to ‘Umar then tell him to do istisqa’ (ask Allah for rain) for the people, and that they will be watered. And tell him: You must be clever, you must be clever!” So, the man went and told ‘Umar, and Umar cried and said “O my Lord, I spare no effort except in what escapes my power!”. narrated by al Baghawi in al fada’il and Abu Umar.
The people suffered drought during Umar’s time, whereupon a man came to teh grave of the Prophet (Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam), and said: “O Messenger of Allah, ask for rain for your community, for verily they have but perished,”, he said so the Messenger of Allah came to him in a dream and told him “Go to ‘Umar then tell him to do istisqa’ (ask Allah for rain) for the people, and that they will be watered. And tell him: You must be clever, you must be clever!” So, the man went and told ‘Umar, and Umar cried and said “O my Lord, I spare no effort except in what escapes my power!”. narrated by al Baghawi in al fada’il and Abu Umar.
*Logical Arguments
1. The ones who use this hadith for this type of tawassul say that Umar radiyallahu anhu did not rebuke the man who did istisqa’ at the grave.
Reply: There is no clear evidence in the hadith indicating that the man told Umar of him going to the grave, but clearly he did tell him of the dream, telling him the message of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.
so to say that he told him about his istisqa’ at the grave is an assumption, and we can’t use assumptions as evidence.
Reply: There is no clear evidence in the hadith indicating that the man told Umar of him going to the grave, but clearly he did tell him of the dream, telling him the message of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.
so to say that he told him about his istisqa’ at the grave is an assumption, and we can’t use assumptions as evidence.
2. It didn’t rain until after Umar radiyallahu anhu made istisqa’ by al Abbas radiyallahu anhum.
If the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was capable or had permission to do du’aa to Allah after his death, when asked by others, then it would have rained immediately after the man asked the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam at his grave, but it didn’t until after Umar’s istisqa’ through the duaa of Al Abbas radiyallahu anhu.
This shows that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, was guiding the man to ask the Umar to do istisqa’ and not him, hinting to Umar by saying to him “be clever!“, and when Umar did istisqa’ by al Abbas (radiyallahu anhuma) it immediately rained..
If the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was capable or had permission to do du’aa to Allah after his death, when asked by others, then it would have rained immediately after the man asked the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam at his grave, but it didn’t until after Umar’s istisqa’ through the duaa of Al Abbas radiyallahu anhu.
This shows that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, was guiding the man to ask the Umar to do istisqa’ and not him, hinting to Umar by saying to him “be clever!“, and when Umar did istisqa’ by al Abbas (radiyallahu anhuma) it immediately rained..
3. If going to the grave of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to ask him to make duaa to Allah was permissable, Umar radiyallahu anhu would have done that when wanting to do istisqa’ instead of doing it through the uncle of the Messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, who was alive, and Umar’s (r.a) saying “we used to make tawassul through your Prophet’s duaa, and now we do tawassul through the uncle of your Prophet…”, indicates that they don’t make tawassul through the Prophet’s (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) duaa after his death, and only when he was alive, or else why would he say “we used to”?
4. If what the man did (wether it was Bilal ibn al Harith radiyallahu anhu or someone else) was correct\permissable, then:
- Why didn’t any of the scholars I quoted mention the narration in a chapter titled (tawassul by the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) or some title indicating that the narration is EVIDENCE for permissibility of that type of tawassul?
Instead they title the chapter in which the narration is in (salat al istisqa’- the man didn’t do salat al Istisqa’ at the grave, only did duaa, while Umar rA did salat al istisqa) , (The people asking the Imam to do istisqa’ in times of drought), wouldn’t it be more important to point out the permissibility of tawassul through the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam after his death, which is stronger than doing tawassul through the righteous and ahl al bayt?
Instead they ignored that part , showing no importance to it at all.
So if they believed that the narration indicates the permissibility of such a tawassul, why didn’t they at least hint to it by the chapter title or a comment like they did to show that it meant to do intercession through saliheen and ahl al bayt, and ask the imam to do istisqa?
- What was the point of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam telling Umar r.A “be clever“?
- If the man told Umar that he went to the grave, and then told him about the dream, why would Umar do salat al istisqa’ when the man already asked the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to do istisqa’ and he told him that they will be watered?
Isn’t the istisqa’ of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam sufficient? - If the action of the man was correct (to ask the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to do istisqa), and the Prophet S.A.W answered his request, then why didn’t it rain immediately after the dream, and instead came down immediately after al Abbas’s (radiyallahu anhu) duaa?
Who is higher in status, the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam or his uncle?
---
Reply to "Logical Arguments"
Quote:
" Logical Arguments
1. The ones who use this hadith for this type of tawassul say that Umar radiyallahu anhu did not rebuke the man who did istisqa’ at the grave.
Reply: There is no clear evidence in the hadith indicating that the man told Umar of him going to the grave, but clearly he did tell him of the dream, telling him the message of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.
so to say that he told him about his istisqa’ at the grave is an assumption, and we can’t use assumptions as evidence. "
REPLY : The man came with a dream to Umar radiallahu anhu and Umar Radiallahu accepted the dream by saying O my Lord, I spare no effort except in what escapes my power!”. Which means the man who saw the dream was truthful in the sight of Umar radiallahu anhu otherwise he would have not accepted the dream !
Secondly the narration which you have mentioned says “!” So, the man went and told ‘Umar,” which shows the man told everything.
Thirdly: the man who saw the dream and did visited the grave was same and he was truthful according to Umar Radiallahu anhu. So we can accept this has a genuine reason to visit our Prophet’s grave Alhumdollilahe.
Quote:2. It didn’t rain until after Umar radiyallahu anhu made istisqa’ by al Abbas radiyallahu anhum.
If the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was capable or had permission to do du’aa to Allah after his death, when asked by others, then it would have rained immediately after the man asked the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam at his grave, but it didn’t until after Umar’s istisqa’ through the duaa of Al Abbas radiyallahu anhu.
This shows that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, was guiding the man to ask the Umar to do istisqa’ and not him, hinting to Umar by saying to him “be clever!“, and when Umar did istisqa’ by al Abbas (radiyallahu anhuma) it immediately rained..
REPLY: Your statement “This shows that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, was guiding the man to ask the Umar to do istisqa’ and not him” clearly shows that you have accepted that the Prophet salallhualaihewasallam was guiding some one after his death Alhumdolillahe.
Regarding your argument that “If the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was capable or had permission to do du’aa to Allah after his death, when asked by others, then it would have rained immediately”
Have you not seen this hadees sharif:
Majmua al zuwaid Ibn hajr haytami 9.24باب ما يحصل لأمته صلى الله عليه وسلم من استغفاره بعد وفاته
عن عبدالله بن مسعود عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال إن لله ملائكة سياحين يبلغون عن أمتيالسلام قال وقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم حياتي خير لكم تحدثون وتحدث لكم ووفاتي خير لكمتعرض علي أعمالكم فما رأيت من خير حمدت الله عليه وما رأيت من شر استغفرت الله لكم
رواه البزار ورجاله رجال الصحيح
"My life is better for you, you narrate Ahadith and Ahadith are narrated for you. When I pass away it will continue to benefit you because your actions will be presented before me. If I see a good deed I shall praise Allah Soobha Nahu Wata'ala, If I see a bad deed of yours I shall ask Allah Soobha Nahu Wata'ala to forgive you.
Narated by Bazzar with men who are sahi [Majma-uz-Zwaa’id, vol.9, pg.24]
Hear it clearly shows that our Nabi sualallhualaihewasallamdoes make dua for us after his death. May Allah show us and keep us on right path.
Quote:3. If going to the grave of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to ask him to make duaa to Allah was permissable, Umar radiyallahu anhu would have done that when wanting to do istisqa’ instead of doing it through the uncle of the Messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, who was alive, and Umar’s (r.a) saying “we used to make tawassul through your Prophet’s duaa, and now we do tawassul through the uncle of your Prophet…”, indicates that they don’t make tawassul through the Prophet’s (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) duaa after his death, and only when he was alive, or else why would he say “we used to”?
REPLY: As per the proof given by you which is as follows: “The people suffered a drought during the time of ‘Umar (his khilafah)”
This means that it was the time when Umar radiallahu anhu was the Khalifa and when he said this “we used to make tawassul through your Prophet’s duaa” this period includes the period of both during the life time of Prophet sualallahualaihewasallam and after his death and also when Abu bakr radiallahuanhu was the khalifa.
So your explanation that “indicates that they don’t make tawassul through the Prophet’s (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) duaa after his death” is wrong.
Secondly you have mistranslated the haddeth as “we used to make tawassul through your Prophet’s duaa”
Muslims do see Arabic text of that hadees as follows and nowhere does it says Prophet’s duaa:
Sahi Bukhari 3.1360باب ذكر العباس بن عبد المطلب رضي الله عنه
3507 حدثنا الحسن بن محمد حدثنا محمد بن عبد الله الأنصاري حدثني أبي عبد الله بن المثنى عنثمامة بن عبد الله بن أنس عن أنس رضي الله عنه ثم أن عمر بن الخطاب كان إذا قحطوا استسقىبالعباس بن عبد المطلب فقال اللهم إنا كنا نتوسل إليك بنبينا صلى الله عليه وسلم فتسقينا وإنا نتوسلإليك بعم رآه فاسقنا قال فيسقون
How can one change the word tawaasul ilaikaa bi nabiyinaa totawassul through your Prophet’s duaa. Whereas the right translation is “we use to take wasila of our Prophet towards you (Allah) and now we take wasila of his uncle”
Quote:4. If what the man did (wether it was Bilal ibn al Harith radiyallahu anhu or someone else) was correct\permissable, then:
o Why didn’t any of the scholars I quoted mention the narration in a chapter titled (tawassul by the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) or some title indicating that the narration is EVIDENCE for permissibility of that type of tawassul?
Instead they title the chapter in which the narration is in (salat al istisqa’- the man didn’t do salat al Istisqa’ at the grave, only did duaa, while Umar rA did salat al istisqa) , (The people asking the Imam to do istisqa’ in times of drought), wouldn’t it be more important to point out the permissibility of tawassul through the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam after his death, which is stronger than doing tawassul through the righteous and ahl al bayt?
Instead they ignored that part , showing no importance to it at all.
So if they believed that the narration indicates the permissibility of such a tawassul, why didn’t they at least hint to it by the chapter title or a comment like they did to show that it meant to do intercession through saliheen and ahl al bayt, and ask the imam to do istisqa?
REPLY:
If Aqida is based on the titles given by various scholars then we all should be muqalid of the scholars.
For example :
It is recorded in al-Darimi's Sunan, in the 15th Chapter of the Introduction (1:43) titled:
"Allah's generosity to His Prophet after his death," related from Aws ibn `Abd Allah:
"The people of Madina complained to `A'isha of the severe drought that they were suffering. She said: "Go to the Prophet's grave and open a window towards the sky so that there will be no roof between him and the sky." They did so, after which they were watered with such rain that vegetation grew and the camels got fat. That year was named the Year of Plenty."
Now will you say we should belive on the title given by the scholar?
The scholars like Ibn Hajr Asqalani gave the hadees about visiting the grave in Fatahulbari
Quote:
o What was the point of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam telling Umar r.A “be clever“?
REPLY:
This question goes directly to our Prophet Sualallahualahewasallam and it also shows that you have accepted that ProphetSualallahualahewasallam did said to Umar radiallahu to be clever.
Quote:o If the man told Umar that he went to the grave, and then told him about the dream, why would Umar do salat al istisqa’ when the man already asked the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to do istisqa’ and he told him that they will be watered?
Isn’t the istisqa’ of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam sufficient?
REPLY:
Istisqa was taught by our Prophet sualalualaihewasallam when he was alive. DO you mean to say that there was need for salatul istisqa when Prophet sualalualaihewasallam was alive. If not then why did Prophet sualalualaihewasallam taught it? This is shariyat that we follow.
o If the action of the man was correct (to ask the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to do istisqa), and the Prophet S.A.W answered his request, then why didn’t it rain immediately after the dream, and instead came down immediately after al Abbas’s (radiyallahu anhu) duaa?
Who is higher in status, the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam or his uncle?
REPLY: If? I say it is indeed. You need to understand what shariyat is. Prophet sualallahualaihewasallam was informed by Allah but still he used to ask others to produce proof in cases of murder or adultery. Did he needed that? Was not wahi enough to accept everything. This is shariyat.
When Prophet sualallahualaihewasallam said it will rain then we muslims must believe it will. How it will, it is the way of shariyat. The main question is that Umar radiallahu anhu accepted the man’s dream as you mentioned before : ““!” So, the man went and told ‘Umar,”
Finally who was superior Umar radiallahu or Al Abbas radiallahu anhu?
1. The ones who use this hadith for this type of tawassul say that Umar radiyallahu anhu did not rebuke the man who did istisqa’ at the grave.
Reply: There is no clear evidence in the hadith indicating that the man told Umar of him going to the grave, but clearly he did tell him of the dream, telling him the message of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.
so to say that he told him about his istisqa’ at the grave is an assumption, and we can’t use assumptions as evidence. "
REPLY : The man came with a dream to Umar radiallahu anhu and Umar Radiallahu accepted the dream by saying O my Lord, I spare no effort except in what escapes my power!”. Which means the man who saw the dream was truthful in the sight of Umar radiallahu anhu otherwise he would have not accepted the dream !
Secondly the narration which you have mentioned says “!” So, the man went and told ‘Umar,” which shows the man told everything.
Thirdly: the man who saw the dream and did visited the grave was same and he was truthful according to Umar Radiallahu anhu. So we can accept this has a genuine reason to visit our Prophet’s grave Alhumdollilahe.
Quote:2. It didn’t rain until after Umar radiyallahu anhu made istisqa’ by al Abbas radiyallahu anhum.
If the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was capable or had permission to do du’aa to Allah after his death, when asked by others, then it would have rained immediately after the man asked the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam at his grave, but it didn’t until after Umar’s istisqa’ through the duaa of Al Abbas radiyallahu anhu.
This shows that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, was guiding the man to ask the Umar to do istisqa’ and not him, hinting to Umar by saying to him “be clever!“, and when Umar did istisqa’ by al Abbas (radiyallahu anhuma) it immediately rained..
REPLY: Your statement “This shows that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, was guiding the man to ask the Umar to do istisqa’ and not him” clearly shows that you have accepted that the Prophet salallhualaihewasallam was guiding some one after his death Alhumdolillahe.
Regarding your argument that “If the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was capable or had permission to do du’aa to Allah after his death, when asked by others, then it would have rained immediately”
Have you not seen this hadees sharif:
Majmua al zuwaid Ibn hajr haytami 9.24باب ما يحصل لأمته صلى الله عليه وسلم من استغفاره بعد وفاته
عن عبدالله بن مسعود عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال إن لله ملائكة سياحين يبلغون عن أمتيالسلام قال وقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم حياتي خير لكم تحدثون وتحدث لكم ووفاتي خير لكمتعرض علي أعمالكم فما رأيت من خير حمدت الله عليه وما رأيت من شر استغفرت الله لكم
رواه البزار ورجاله رجال الصحيح
"My life is better for you, you narrate Ahadith and Ahadith are narrated for you. When I pass away it will continue to benefit you because your actions will be presented before me. If I see a good deed I shall praise Allah Soobha Nahu Wata'ala, If I see a bad deed of yours I shall ask Allah Soobha Nahu Wata'ala to forgive you.
Narated by Bazzar with men who are sahi [Majma-uz-Zwaa’id, vol.9, pg.24]
Hear it clearly shows that our Nabi sualallhualaihewasallamdoes make dua for us after his death. May Allah show us and keep us on right path.
Quote:3. If going to the grave of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to ask him to make duaa to Allah was permissable, Umar radiyallahu anhu would have done that when wanting to do istisqa’ instead of doing it through the uncle of the Messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, who was alive, and Umar’s (r.a) saying “we used to make tawassul through your Prophet’s duaa, and now we do tawassul through the uncle of your Prophet…”, indicates that they don’t make tawassul through the Prophet’s (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) duaa after his death, and only when he was alive, or else why would he say “we used to”?
REPLY: As per the proof given by you which is as follows: “The people suffered a drought during the time of ‘Umar (his khilafah)”
This means that it was the time when Umar radiallahu anhu was the Khalifa and when he said this “we used to make tawassul through your Prophet’s duaa” this period includes the period of both during the life time of Prophet sualallahualaihewasallam and after his death and also when Abu bakr radiallahuanhu was the khalifa.
So your explanation that “indicates that they don’t make tawassul through the Prophet’s (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) duaa after his death” is wrong.
Secondly you have mistranslated the haddeth as “we used to make tawassul through your Prophet’s duaa”
Muslims do see Arabic text of that hadees as follows and nowhere does it says Prophet’s duaa:
Sahi Bukhari 3.1360باب ذكر العباس بن عبد المطلب رضي الله عنه
3507 حدثنا الحسن بن محمد حدثنا محمد بن عبد الله الأنصاري حدثني أبي عبد الله بن المثنى عنثمامة بن عبد الله بن أنس عن أنس رضي الله عنه ثم أن عمر بن الخطاب كان إذا قحطوا استسقىبالعباس بن عبد المطلب فقال اللهم إنا كنا نتوسل إليك بنبينا صلى الله عليه وسلم فتسقينا وإنا نتوسلإليك بعم رآه فاسقنا قال فيسقون
How can one change the word tawaasul ilaikaa bi nabiyinaa totawassul through your Prophet’s duaa. Whereas the right translation is “we use to take wasila of our Prophet towards you (Allah) and now we take wasila of his uncle”
Quote:4. If what the man did (wether it was Bilal ibn al Harith radiyallahu anhu or someone else) was correct\permissable, then:
o Why didn’t any of the scholars I quoted mention the narration in a chapter titled (tawassul by the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) or some title indicating that the narration is EVIDENCE for permissibility of that type of tawassul?
Instead they title the chapter in which the narration is in (salat al istisqa’- the man didn’t do salat al Istisqa’ at the grave, only did duaa, while Umar rA did salat al istisqa) , (The people asking the Imam to do istisqa’ in times of drought), wouldn’t it be more important to point out the permissibility of tawassul through the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam after his death, which is stronger than doing tawassul through the righteous and ahl al bayt?
Instead they ignored that part , showing no importance to it at all.
So if they believed that the narration indicates the permissibility of such a tawassul, why didn’t they at least hint to it by the chapter title or a comment like they did to show that it meant to do intercession through saliheen and ahl al bayt, and ask the imam to do istisqa?
REPLY:
If Aqida is based on the titles given by various scholars then we all should be muqalid of the scholars.
For example :
It is recorded in al-Darimi's Sunan, in the 15th Chapter of the Introduction (1:43) titled:
"Allah's generosity to His Prophet after his death," related from Aws ibn `Abd Allah:
"The people of Madina complained to `A'isha of the severe drought that they were suffering. She said: "Go to the Prophet's grave and open a window towards the sky so that there will be no roof between him and the sky." They did so, after which they were watered with such rain that vegetation grew and the camels got fat. That year was named the Year of Plenty."
Now will you say we should belive on the title given by the scholar?
The scholars like Ibn Hajr Asqalani gave the hadees about visiting the grave in Fatahul
Quote:
o What was the point of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam telling Umar r.A “be clever“?
REPLY:
This question goes directly to our Prophet Sualallahualahewasallam and it also shows that you have accepted that ProphetSualallahualahewasallam did said to Umar radiallahu to be clever.
Quote:o If the man told Umar that he went to the grave, and then told him about the dream, why would Umar do salat al istisqa’ when the man already asked the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to do istisqa’ and he told him that they will be watered?
Isn’t the istisqa’ of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam sufficient?
REPLY:
Istisqa was taught by our Prophet sualalualaihewasallam when he was alive. DO you mean to say that there was need for salatul istisqa when Prophet sualalualaihewasallam was alive. If not then why did Prophet sualalualaihewasallam taught it? This is shariyat that we follow.
o If the action of the man was correct (to ask the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to do istisqa), and the Prophet S.A.W answered his request, then why didn’t it rain immediately after the dream, and instead came down immediately after al Abbas’s (radiyallahu anhu) duaa?
Who is higher in status, the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam or his uncle?
REPLY: If? I say it is indeed. You need to understand what shariyat is. Prophet sualallahualaihewasallam was informed by Allah but still he used to ask others to produce proof in cases of murder or adultery. Did he needed that? Was not wahi enough to accept everything. This is shariyat.
When Prophet sualallahualaihewasallam said it will rain then we muslims must believe it will. How it will, it is the way of shariyat. The main question is that Umar radiallahu anhu accepted the man’s dream as you mentioned before : ““!” So, the man went and told ‘Umar,”
Finally who was superior Umar radiallahu or Al Abbas radiallahu anhu?
Umar radiallahu was the Khalifa and his dua would have been the best in this period but still he asked Abbas radiallahu for tawassul to proove us that it is indeed through the Prophet’s family that tawassul can be made.
And now some hadees sharif:
Ibn Abi Shayba narrates in the chapter entitled: "Touching the grave of the Prophet" with a sahih chain according to Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani and al-Qadi 'Iyad in al-Shifa' (in the chapter entitled: "Concerning the visit to the Prophet's grave , the excellence of those who visit it and how he should be greeted"):
Yazid ibn 'Abd al-Malik ibn Qusayt and al-'Utbi narrated that it was the practice of the Companions in the mosque of the Prophet to place their hands on the pommel of the hand rail (rummana) of the pulpit (minbar) where the Prophet used to place his hand.
There they would face the Qibla and supplicate to Allah Almighty and Exalted hoping He would answer their supplication because they were placing their hands where the Prophet placed his while making their supplication. Abu Mawduda said: "And I saw Yazid ibn 'Abd al-Malik do the same."
Ibn Abi Shayba, Musannaf (4:121).
Now I ask does the title of this chapter affects us or not and does this incidence helps us in some way regarding tawassul or not?
Qays ibn Abi Hazim narrated that one day, `Umar addressed the people from the pulpit in Madina and said in his address:
"Verily there is in the Gardens of `Adn a palace which has five hundred doors, each posted with five thousand of the ladies of Paradise, and none but a Prophet shall enter it." At this point he turned to the grave of the Messenger of Allah - upon him blessings and peace - and said: "Congratulations to you, O dweller of this grave!" Then he continued: "And none but a Most-Truthful One (siddiq) shall enter it." At this point he turned towards Abu Bakr's grave and said: "Congratulations to you, Abu Bakr!"
Then he said: "And none but a Martyr shall enter it," and he pointed to himself. He continued, speaking to himself out loud: "And when did you inherit martyrdom, `Umar?" Then he said: "Truly, the One who brought me out from Makka unto the migration to Madina is able to bring me martyrdom!"
Al-Tabarani narrated it in al-Awsat through trustworthy narrators cf. al-Haythami, Majma` al-Zawa'id (9:54-55).
And now some hadees sharif:
Ibn Abi Shayba narrates in the chapter entitled: "Touching the grave of the Prophet" with a sahih chain according to Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani and al-Qadi 'Iyad in al-Shifa' (in the chapter entitled: "Concerning the visit to the Prophet's grave , the excellence of those who visit it and how he should be greeted"):
Yazid ibn 'Abd al-Malik ibn Qusayt and al-'Utbi narrated that it was the practice of the Companions in the mosque of the Prophet to place their hands on the pommel of the hand rail (rummana) of the pulpit (minbar) where the Prophet used to place his hand.
There they would face the Qibla and supplicate to Allah Almighty and Exalted hoping He would answer their supplication because they were placing their hands where the Prophet placed his while making their supplication. Abu Mawduda said: "And I saw Yazid ibn 'Abd al-Malik do the same."
Ibn Abi Shayba, Musannaf (4:121).
Now I ask does the title of this chapter affects us or not and does this incidence helps us in some way regarding tawassul or not?
Qays ibn Abi Hazim narrated that one day, `Umar addressed the people from the pulpit in Madina and said in his address:
"Verily there is in the Gardens of `Adn a palace which has five hundred doors, each posted with five thousand of the ladies of Paradise, and none but a Prophet shall enter it." At this point he turned to the grave of the Messenger of Allah - upon him blessings and peace - and said: "Congratulations to you, O dweller of this grave!" Then he continued: "And none but a Most-Truthful One (siddiq) shall enter it." At this point he turned towards Abu Bakr's grave and said: "Congratulations to you, Abu Bakr!"
Then he said: "And none but a Martyr shall enter it," and he pointed to himself. He continued, speaking to himself out loud: "And when did you inherit martyrdom, `Umar?" Then he said: "Truly, the One who brought me out from Makka unto the migration to Madina is able to bring me martyrdom!"
Al-Tabarani narrated it in al-Awsat through trustworthy narrators cf. al-Haythami, Majma` al-Zawa'id (9:54-55).
---
1) Ibn Hajr Asqalani Rahimullah says in Fathaul Bari 2.495 as follows:
وروى بن أبي شيبة بإسناد صحيح من رواية أبي صالح السمان عن مالك الداري وكان خازن عمرقال أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال يا رسول اللهاستسق لامتك فإنهم قد هلكوا فأتى الرجل في المنام فقيله ائت عمر الحديث وقد روى سيف في الفتوحأن الذي رأى المنام المذكور هو بلال بن الحارث المزني أحد الصحابة وظهر بهذا كله مناسبةالترجمة لأصل هذه القصة أيضا والله الموفق
The person who saw the dream was *Bilal Bin Harith Radiallahu.
*Someone has forgotten to put this in the post ! This is how Ibn Hajr Rahimullah has understood the hadees.
Also Ibn Katheer says clearly in Al Bidayah Wal Nihaya 7, 91-92 that the man was *Bilal Bin Harith Radiallahu.
2) Now the amal done by a Sahaba is right and cannot be ignored as you think may be.
3) Regarding your statement "It was guiding him to something that is sunnah, not some new ruling or act of worship. nothing new added to deen.
That is what is not accepted, to say that the PRophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam taught a person some new ibadah or way of ibadah or some new ruling and such."
Din and Shariyat is by the saying of our Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and we muslims believe that he is indeed ALIVE. AS I mentioned before understand Shariyat first then you will understand everything. What was the need for hazrat Bilal Radiallahu to visit Prophet's grave? If anyone has an understanding he will see the difference.
4) Your statement "If the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was capable or had permission to do du’aa to Allah after his death, when asked by others, then it would have rained immediately"
you are contradicting your own statement by giving another statement which is "now in the narration you quoted, no one ASKED the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to make istighfar for them, it is the angels who deliver the information and he asks for istighfar."
First statement shows Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam cannot make dua when requested but the second statement shows he can.
Now I ask you if the angels are informing the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam about the actions of his Ummah will the action of Hazrat Billal Radiallahu about visiting his grave would have not been presented to the Prophet?
how can a muslim say that Prophet's dua was not accepted as it did not rained imediately?
In fact Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam himeself said that tell Umar radiallahu that it will RAIN.
5) Sunan Al Darimi 1.56: Chapter Allah's generosity to His Prophet after his deathباب ما أكرم الله تعالى نبيه صلى الله عليه وسلم بعد موته 92 حدثنا أبو النعمان ثنا سعيد بن زيد ثناعمرو بن مالك النكري حدثنا أبو الجوزاء أوس بن عبد الله قال ثم قحط أهل المدينة قحطا شديدا فشكواإلى عائشة فقالت انظروا قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فاجعلوا منه كووا إلى السماء حتى لا يكونبينه وبين السماء سقف قال ففعلوا فمطرنا مطرا حتى نبت العشب وسمنت الإبل حتى تفتقت من الشحمفسمي عام الفتق
"The people of Madina complained to `A'isha of the severe drought that they were suffering. She said: "Go to the Prophet's grave and open a window towards the sky so that there will be no roof between him and the sky." They did so, after which they were watered with such rain that vegetation grew and the camels got fat.That year was named the Year of Plenty."
I ask what was the Aqeeda of Imam Darimi when he headed the chapter as Chapter Allah's generosity to His Prophet after his death?
6) The Salafi scholar Nasiruddin Albaani says :
Imaam Ahmad allowed tawassul by means of the Messenger alone, and others such as Imaam ash-Shawkaanee allowed tawassul by means of him and other Prophets and the Pious. However we, as is the case in all matters where there is disagreement, follow whatever is supported by the proof whatever that is, without blindly sticking to the opinions of men."
[al-Albani, At-Tawassul p. 38]
This is how people reject the scholars whome they themseleves call asRahimullah. For example Imam Darimi, Ibn Hajr Asqalani, Imaam ash-Shawkaanee and Imam Nawawi.
7) What Ibn Hajr Asqalani says about the Aqeeda of visiting the grave of our beloved Nabi sualallahualihewasallam:
Fatahul Bari: 3.66والحاصل أنهم ألزموا ابن تيمية بتحريم شد الرحل إلى زيارة قبر سيدنا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلموأنكرنا صورة ذلك، وفي شرح ذلك من الطرفين طول، وهي من أبشع المسائل المنقولة عن ابنتيمية، ومن جملة ما استدل به على دفع ما ادعاه غيره من الإجماع على مشروعية زيارة قبر النبيصلى الله عليه وسلم ما نقل عن مالك أنه كره أن يقول زرت قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم، وقد أجابعنه المحققون من أصحابه بأنه كره اللفظ أدبا لا أصل الزيارة فإنها من أفضل الأعمال وأجل القرباتالموصلة إلى ذي الجلال وإن مشروعيتها محل إجماع بلا نزاع والله الهادي إلى الصواب
Hafidhh Asqalani says that:
The Scholars have said, “How can Hafidhh Ibn Taymiyyah say that it is Haraam to visit our Prophet [May Allah bless Him and grant Him peace] grave”. In this instance the Scholars have really rebuked Hafidhh Ibn Taymiyyah. And on this saying of Hafidhh Ibn Taymiyyah it created a lot of disagreement between the Ummah. As all the Scholars agree unanimously that it is permitted to travel to visit our Prophet (Sallallhu’ alaihi wa sallams) grave. The evidence Hafidhh Ibn Taymiyyah gave was of Imam Maliks saying that he did not like people saying that they have visited our Prophet (Sallallhu’ alaihi wa sallams) grave. As the Maliki Scholars have cleared this by saying that Imam Malik did not like the word Visit (Ziyarah) being used, he was not against the actual visiting of the grave. Imam Malik knew about visiting our Prophet (Sallallhu’alaihi wa sallams) grave is the best sort of aamal you can do to become closer to Allah Ta’ala. And he also knew that the whole of the Ummah is together on this issue.
I ask what is the Aqeedah of Ibn Hajr Asqalani and Imam Malik Rahimullah whome all the muslims call as Rahimullah!
8) I ask if a person who is doing a tafsir and is giving only one hadees in explanation of the Ayat then will that be according to his Aqeeda or not?
Answer will be YES it will be.
Tafsir Al Qurtubi 5.265 - 266
الآية: 64 {وما أرسلنا من رسول إلا ليطاع بإذن الله ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاؤوك فاستغفروا اللهواستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما}.
الآية: 64 {وما أرسلنا من رسول إلا ليطاع بإذن الله ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاؤوك فاستغفروا اللهواستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما}قوله تعالى: "وما أرسلنا من رسول" "من "زائدة للتوكيد. "إلا ليطاع" فيما أمر به ونهى عنه. "بإذنالله" بعلم الله. وقيل: بتوفيق الله. "ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاؤوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهمالرسول" روى أبو صادق عن علي قال: قدم علينا أعرابي بعد ما دفنا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلمبثلاثة أيام، فرمى بنفسه على قبر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وحثا على رأسه من ترابه؛ فقال:قلت يا رسول الله فسمعنا قولك، ووعيت عن الله فوعينا عنك، وكان فيما أنزل الله عليك "ولو أنهم إذظلموا أنفسهم "الآية، وقد ظلمت نفسي وجئتك تستغفر لي. فنودي من القبر أنه قد غفر لك. "لوجدواالله توابا رحيما" أي قابلا لتوبتهم، وهما مفعولان لا غير.
“Abū Sādiq has reported it from ‘Alī. A villager came to see us three days after the burial of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآلهوسلم). He placed himself near the Prophet’s grave, sprinkled its earth over his body and said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, you said and we have heard it from you. You received commands from Allah and we received commands from you, and one of these divine commands is wa law annahum idh zalamū anfusahum. It is true that I have wronged myself, therefore, you should pray for my forgiveness.’ (In response to the villager’s act of imploring) he was called out from the grave: ‘there is no doubt that you have been forgiven.’”
Ibn Katheer also gives the same hadees in his tafsir of the same Ayat Surah Nisa verse 64:
} أي فرضت طاعته على من أرسله إليهم، وقوله: {بإذن اللّه} قال مجاهد: أي لا يطيع أحد إلى بإذني،يعني لا يطيعه إلا من وفقته لذلك، كقوله: {ولقد صدقكم اللّه وعده إذ تحسونه بإذنه} أي عن أمرهوقدره ومشيئته وتسليطه إياكم عليهم، وقوله: {ولو أنهم إذا ظلموا أنفسهم} الآية، يرشد تعالى العصاةوالمذنبين إذا وقع منهم الخطأ والعصيان أن يأتوا إلى الرسول صلى اللّه عليه وسلم فيستغفروا اللّه عندهويسألوه أن يستغفر لهم، فإنهم إذا فعلوا ذلك تاب اللّه عليهم ورحمهم وغفر لهم، ولهذا قال: {لوجدوا اللّهتواباً رحيماً} وقد ذكر جماعة منهم الشيخ أبو منصور الصباغ في كتابه "الشامل" الحكاية المشهورةعن العتبي قال: كنت جالساً عند قبر النبي صلى اللّه عليه وسلم فجاء أعرابي فقال: السلام عليك يارسول اللّه، سمعت اللّه يقول: {ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاءوك فاستغفروا اللّه واستغفر لهم الرسوللوجدوا اللّه تواباً رحيما} وقد جئتك مستغفراً لذنبي مستشفعاً بك إلى ربي، ثم أنشأ يقول:يا خير من دفنت بالقاع أعظمه * فطاب من طيبهن القاع والأكم
نفسي الفداء لقبرٍ أنت ساكنه * فيه العفاف وفيه الجود والكرم
ثم انصرف الأعرابي، فغلبنتي عيني فرأيت النبي صلى اللّه عليه وسلم في النوم فقال: "يا عتبي إلحقالأعرابي فبشره أن اللّه قد غفر له
(In this Qur'anic verse) Allah is exhorting the sinners and evildoers that when they commit sins and errors they should call on the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and ask forgiveness from Allah. They should also request the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآلهوسلم) to pray for them. When they do so, Allah will turn to them and forgive them and He will show mercy to them. That is why He used the words la-wajadullāha tawwāban-rahīmā (they (on the basis of this means and intercession) would have surely found Allah the Granter of repentance, extremely Merciful). Many have stated this tradition. One of them is Abū Mansūr Sabbāgh who writes in his book al-Hikāyāt-ul-mashhūrah that, according to ‘Utbī, once he was sitting beside the Prophet’s grave when a bedouin came and he said, “Peace be on you, O Allah’s Messenger. I have heard that Allah says: ‘(O beloved!) And if they had come to you, when they had wronged their souls, and asked forgiveness of Allah, and the Messenger also had asked forgiveness for them, they (on the basis of this means and intercession) would have surely found Allah the Granter of repentance, extremely Merciful.’ I have come to you, asking forgiveness for my sins and I make you as my intermediary before my Lord and I have come to you for this purpose.” Then he recited these verses: “O, the most exalted among the buried people who improved the worth of the plains and the hillocks! May I sacrifice my life for this grave which is made radiant by you, (the Prophet,) the one who is (an embodiment) of mercy and forgiveness.” Then the bedouin went away and I fell asleep. In my dream I saw the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). He said to me: O ‘Utbī, the bedouin is right, go and give him the good news that Allah has forgiven his sins
وروى بن أبي شيبة بإسناد صحيح من رواية أبي صالح السمان عن مالك الداري وكان خازن عمرقال أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال يا رسول اللهاستسق لامتك فإنهم قد هلكوا فأتى الرجل في المنام فقيله ائت عمر الحديث وقد روى سيف في الفتوحأن الذي رأى المنام المذكور هو بلال بن الحارث المزني أحد الصحابة وظهر بهذا كله مناسبةالترجمة لأصل هذه القصة أيضا والله الموفق
The person who saw the dream was *Bilal Bin Harith Radiallahu.
*Someone has forgotten to put this in the post ! This is how Ibn Hajr Rahimullah has understood the hadees.
Also Ibn Katheer says clearly in Al Bidayah Wal Nihaya 7, 91-92 that the man was *Bilal Bin Harith Radiallahu.
2) Now the amal done by a Sahaba is right and cannot be ignored as you think may be.
3) Regarding your statement "It was guiding him to something that is sunnah, not some new ruling or act of worship. nothing new added to deen.
That is what is not accepted, to say that the PRophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam taught a person some new ibadah or way of ibadah or some new ruling and such."
Din and Shariyat is by the saying of our Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and we muslims believe that he is indeed ALIVE. AS I mentioned before understand Shariyat first then you will understand everything. What was the need for hazrat Bilal Radiallahu to visit Prophet's grave? If anyone has an understanding he will see the difference.
4) Your statement "If the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was capable or had permission to do du’aa to Allah after his death, when asked by others, then it would have rained immediately"
you are contradicting your own statement by giving another statement which is "now in the narration you quoted, no one ASKED the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to make istighfar for them, it is the angels who deliver the information and he asks for istighfar."
First statement shows Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam cannot make dua when requested but the second statement shows he can.
Now I ask you if the angels are informing the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam about the actions of his Ummah will the action of Hazrat Billal Radiallahu about visiting his grave would have not been presented to the Prophet?
how can a muslim say that Prophet's dua was not accepted as it did not rained imediately?
In fact Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam himeself said that tell Umar radiallahu that it will RAIN.
5) Sunan Al Darimi 1.56: Chapter Allah's generosity to His Prophet after his deathباب ما أكرم الله تعالى نبيه صلى الله عليه وسلم بعد موته 92 حدثنا أبو النعمان ثنا سعيد بن زيد ثناعمرو بن مالك النكري حدثنا أبو الجوزاء أوس بن عبد الله قال ثم قحط أهل المدينة قحطا شديدا فشكواإلى عائشة فقالت انظروا قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فاجعلوا منه كووا إلى السماء حتى لا يكونبينه وبين السماء سقف قال ففعلوا فمطرنا مطرا حتى نبت العشب وسمنت الإبل حتى تفتقت من الشحمفسمي عام الفتق
"The people of Madina complained to `A'isha of the severe drought that they were suffering. She said: "Go to the Prophet's grave and open a window towards the sky so that there will be no roof between him and the sky." They did so, after which they were watered with such rain that vegetation grew and the camels got fat.That year was named the Year of Plenty."
I ask what was the Aqeeda of Imam Darimi when he headed the chapter as Chapter Allah's generosity to His Prophet after his death?
6) The Salafi scholar Nasiruddin Albaani says :
Imaam Ahmad allowed tawassul by means of the Messenger alone, and others such as Imaam ash-Shawkaanee allowed tawassul by means of him and other Prophets and the Pious. However we, as is the case in all matters where there is disagreement, follow whatever is supported by the proof whatever that is, without blindly sticking to the opinions of men."
[al-Albani, At-Tawassul p. 38]
This is how people reject the scholars whome they themseleves call asRahimullah. For example Imam Darimi, Ibn Hajr Asqalani, Imaam ash-Shawkaanee and Imam Nawawi.
7) What Ibn Hajr Asqalani says about the Aqeeda of visiting the grave of our beloved Nabi sualallahualihewasallam:
Fatahul Bari: 3.66والحاصل أنهم ألزموا ابن تيمية بتحريم شد الرحل إلى زيارة قبر سيدنا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلموأنكرنا صورة ذلك، وفي شرح ذلك من الطرفين طول، وهي من أبشع المسائل المنقولة عن ابنتيمية، ومن جملة ما استدل به على دفع ما ادعاه غيره من الإجماع على مشروعية زيارة قبر النبيصلى الله عليه وسلم ما نقل عن مالك أنه كره أن يقول زرت قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم، وقد أجابعنه المحققون من أصحابه بأنه كره اللفظ أدبا لا أصل الزيارة فإنها من أفضل الأعمال وأجل القرباتالموصلة إلى ذي الجلال وإن مشروعيتها محل إجماع بلا نزاع والله الهادي إلى الصواب
Hafidhh Asqalani says that:
The Scholars have said, “How can Hafidhh Ibn Taymiyyah say that it is Haraam to visit our Prophet [May Allah bless Him and grant Him peace] grave”. In this instance the Scholars have really rebuked Hafidhh Ibn Taymiyyah. And on this saying of Hafidhh Ibn Taymiyyah it created a lot of disagreement between the Ummah. As all the Scholars agree unanimously that it is permitted to travel to visit our Prophet (Sallallhu’ alaihi wa sallams) grave. The evidence Hafidhh Ibn Taymiyyah gave was of Imam Maliks saying that he did not like people saying that they have visited our Prophet (Sallallhu’ alaihi wa sallams) grave. As the Maliki Scholars have cleared this by saying that Imam Malik did not like the word Visit (Ziyarah) being used, he was not against the actual visiting of the grave. Imam Malik knew about visiting our Prophet (Sallallhu’alaihi wa sallams) grave is the best sort of aamal you can do to become closer to Allah Ta’ala. And he also knew that the whole of the Ummah is together on this issue.
I ask what is the Aqeedah of Ibn Hajr Asqalani and Imam Malik Rahimullah whome all the muslims call as Rahimullah!
8) I ask if a person who is doing a tafsir and is giving only one hadees in explanation of the Ayat then will that be according to his Aqeeda or not?
Answer will be YES it will be.
Tafsir Al Qurtubi 5.265 - 266
الآية: 64 {وما أرسلنا من رسول إلا ليطاع بإذن الله ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاؤوك فاستغفروا اللهواستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما}.
الآية: 64 {وما أرسلنا من رسول إلا ليطاع بإذن الله ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاؤوك فاستغفروا اللهواستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما}قوله تعالى: "وما أرسلنا من رسول" "من "زائدة للتوكيد. "إلا ليطاع" فيما أمر به ونهى عنه. "بإذنالله" بعلم الله. وقيل: بتوفيق الله. "ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاؤوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهمالرسول" روى أبو صادق عن علي قال: قدم علينا أعرابي بعد ما دفنا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلمبثلاثة أيام، فرمى بنفسه على قبر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وحثا على رأسه من ترابه؛ فقال:قلت يا رسول الله فسمعنا قولك، ووعيت عن الله فوعينا عنك، وكان فيما أنزل الله عليك "ولو أنهم إذظلموا أنفسهم "الآية، وقد ظلمت نفسي وجئتك تستغفر لي. فنودي من القبر أنه قد غفر لك. "لوجدواالله توابا رحيما" أي قابلا لتوبتهم، وهما مفعولان لا غير.
“Abū Sādiq has reported it from ‘Alī. A villager came to see us three days after the burial of the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآلهوسلم). He placed himself near the Prophet’s grave, sprinkled its earth over his body and said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, you said and we have heard it from you. You received commands from Allah and we received commands from you, and one of these divine commands is wa law annahum idh zalamū anfusahum. It is true that I have wronged myself, therefore, you should pray for my forgiveness.’ (In response to the villager’s act of imploring) he was called out from the grave: ‘there is no doubt that you have been forgiven.’”
Ibn Katheer also gives the same hadees in his tafsir of the same Ayat Surah Nisa verse 64:
} أي فرضت طاعته على من أرسله إليهم، وقوله: {بإذن اللّه} قال مجاهد: أي لا يطيع أحد إلى بإذني،يعني لا يطيعه إلا من وفقته لذلك، كقوله: {ولقد صدقكم اللّه وعده إذ تحسونه بإذنه} أي عن أمرهوقدره ومشيئته وتسليطه إياكم عليهم، وقوله: {ولو أنهم إذا ظلموا أنفسهم} الآية، يرشد تعالى العصاةوالمذنبين إذا وقع منهم الخطأ والعصيان أن يأتوا إلى الرسول صلى اللّه عليه وسلم فيستغفروا اللّه عندهويسألوه أن يستغفر لهم، فإنهم إذا فعلوا ذلك تاب اللّه عليهم ورحمهم وغفر لهم، ولهذا قال: {لوجدوا اللّهتواباً رحيماً} وقد ذكر جماعة منهم الشيخ أبو منصور الصباغ في كتابه "الشامل" الحكاية المشهورةعن العتبي قال: كنت جالساً عند قبر النبي صلى اللّه عليه وسلم فجاء أعرابي فقال: السلام عليك يارسول اللّه، سمعت اللّه يقول: {ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاءوك فاستغفروا اللّه واستغفر لهم الرسوللوجدوا اللّه تواباً رحيما} وقد جئتك مستغفراً لذنبي مستشفعاً بك إلى ربي، ثم أنشأ يقول:يا خير من دفنت بالقاع أعظمه * فطاب من طيبهن القاع والأكم
نفسي الفداء لقبرٍ أنت ساكنه * فيه العفاف وفيه الجود والكرم
ثم انصرف الأعرابي، فغلبنتي عيني فرأيت النبي صلى اللّه عليه وسلم في النوم فقال: "يا عتبي إلحقالأعرابي فبشره أن اللّه قد غفر له
(In this Qur'anic verse) Allah is exhorting the sinners and evildoers that when they commit sins and errors they should call on the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and ask forgiveness from Allah. They should also request the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآلهوسلم) to pray for them. When they do so, Allah will turn to them and forgive them and He will show mercy to them. That is why He used the words la-wajadullāha tawwāban-rahīmā (they (on the basis of this means and intercession) would have surely found Allah the Granter of repentance, extremely Merciful). Many have stated this tradition. One of them is Abū Mansūr Sabbāgh who writes in his book al-Hikāyāt-ul-mashhūrah that, according to ‘Utbī, once he was sitting beside the Prophet’s grave when a bedouin came and he said, “Peace be on you, O Allah’s Messenger. I have heard that Allah says: ‘(O beloved!) And if they had come to you, when they had wronged their souls, and asked forgiveness of Allah, and the Messenger also had asked forgiveness for them, they (on the basis of this means and intercession) would have surely found Allah the Granter of repentance, extremely Merciful.’ I have come to you, asking forgiveness for my sins and I make you as my intermediary before my Lord and I have come to you for this purpose.” Then he recited these verses: “O, the most exalted among the buried people who improved the worth of the plains and the hillocks! May I sacrifice my life for this grave which is made radiant by you, (the Prophet,) the one who is (an embodiment) of mercy and forgiveness.” Then the bedouin went away and I fell asleep. In my dream I saw the Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). He said to me: O ‘Utbī, the bedouin is right, go and give him the good news that Allah has forgiven his sins
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1) I'd love to know who said that we cannot accept a week hadees and have to take only Sahi hadees. And who asked to clasify the hadees into Sahi, Daef and Mauwdoo?
2) Ibn Hajr Haytami who is recognised as a scholar by Ahle haddes and as well as the sunnis he says the narration by Bazzar is SAHI and now we can see the new generation people claim it to be week GOOD JOB. Ibn Hajr Haytami named the chapter as باب ما يحصل لأمته صلىالله عليه وسلم من استغفاره بعد وفاته
asking istigfaar for the ummah after death
I ask what was the aqeeda of Ibn Hajr Haytami when he headed this title using a week hadees according to salafi?
3) Imam Darimi has given a title before giving the hadees sharif which is "Allah's generosity to His Prophet after his death".
I asked what will be the Aqeeda of Imam Darimi?
more over he gave a title to a hadees which you people say is week? So this inturn prooves that Imam Darimi accepted week hadees to proove Fadilat of our beloved Nabi sualalahualaihewasallam ! Alhumdolillahe.
4) Who has asked you to trust the narrations? dont accept it its your will. Ibn Hajr Asqalani said the hadees Ibn Abi Shayba, Musannaf (4:121) is Sahi so we follow it. Alhumdolillahe! you don't because your scholars says so so and even you are muqallid of your scholar.
I give you two choice
a) Accept what Ibn Hajr says as the hadees is Sahi and
b) accept your scholar who took trouble to proove the hadees as daeef.
Whom will you follow?
the one who knows in an out of the hadees to whome we say asrahimullah or the one who is considered as a shaikh by the Salafis only?
5) The tafsir I gave you is Tafsir Qurtubi and my question was not concerning the hadees sharif but rather the Aqeda of Imam Qurtubi rahimullah whom you people also call as Rahimullah.
6) Ibn Katheer also gave the same hadees in his tafsir to proove what that he did not believe that such a thing ever happened? or whether his Aqeeda was the same as ours.
7) You do not accept something which is abondened by the scholar like your statement "Imaam Nasaa’ee and other said, Munkar al-hadeeth, abandoned in hadeeth" but when they give a hadees in refference to their tafsir you say we do not accept. Why double standards.
8) My Aqeeda is based on the beliefs of the majority of the scholars and not just a single sect.
9) I think that the Salafis are thinking that they are better than the scholars that were present before and better than such scholars whose books are read by both the salafis and the sunnis till date.
10) I also would like to know that if a person now goes to the grave of our beloved Prophet sualalaahualaihewasallam and says O Prophet make dua to Allah that he forgives us. Is this act Haraam, Mustahab or Jayaz.
11) The quranic verse : Surah Nisa 4.64
We sent not an Apostle but to be obeyed in accordance with the will of Allah. If they had only when they were unjust to themselves come
unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness and the Apostle had asked forgiveness for them they would have found Allah indeed Oft-Returning
most Merciful.
Allah has not limited this ayat just during the lifetime of our Prophet sualallahualaihewasallam and because of this Ayat all the hadees that are recorded in the different tafsirs are termed to be accepted as long as it is in accordance to this ayat.
12) Remember what Salafi scholar Albani says:
Imaam Ahmad allowed tawassul by means of the Messenger alone, and others such as Imaam ash-Shawkaanee allowed tawassul by means of him and other Prophets and the Pious. However we, as is the case in all matters where there is disagreement, follow whatever is supported by the proof whatever that is, without blindly sticking to the opinions of men." [al-Albani, At-Tawassul p. 38]
I ask what was the aqeeda of Imaam Ahmed and Imaam ASh-Shawkaanee?
---
2) Ibn Hajr Haytami who is recognised as a scholar by Ahle haddes and as well as the sunnis he says the narration by Bazzar is SAHI and now we can see the new generation people claim it to be week GOOD JOB. Ibn Hajr Haytami named the chapter as باب ما يحصل لأمته صلىالله عليه وسلم من استغفاره بعد وفاته
asking istigfaar for the ummah after death
I ask what was the aqeeda of Ibn Hajr Haytami when he headed this title using a week hadees according to salafi?
3) Imam Darimi has given a title before giving the hadees sharif which is "Allah's generosity to His Prophet after his death".
I asked what will be the Aqeeda of Imam Darimi?
more over he gave a title to a hadees which you people say is week? So this inturn prooves that Imam Darimi accepted week hadees to proove Fadilat of our beloved Nabi sualalahualaihewasallam ! Alhumdolillahe.
4) Who has asked you to trust the narrations? dont accept it its your will. Ibn Hajr Asqalani said the hadees Ibn Abi Shayba, Musannaf (4:121) is Sahi so we follow it. Alhumdolillahe! you don't because your scholars says so so and even you are muqallid of your scholar.
I give you two choice
a) Accept what Ibn Hajr says as the hadees is Sahi and
b) accept your scholar who took trouble to proove the hadees as daeef.
Whom will you follow?
the one who knows in an out of the hadees to whome we say asrahimullah or the one who is considered as a shaikh by the Salafis only?
5) The tafsir I gave you is Tafsir Qurtubi and my question was not concerning the hadees sharif but rather the Aqeda of Imam Qurtubi rahimullah whom you people also call as Rahimullah.
6) Ibn Katheer also gave the same hadees in his tafsir to proove what that he did not believe that such a thing ever happened? or whether his Aqeeda was the same as ours.
7) You do not accept something which is abondened by the scholar like your statement "Imaam Nasaa’ee and other said, Munkar al-hadeeth, abandoned in hadeeth" but when they give a hadees in refference to their tafsir you say we do not accept. Why double standards.
8) My Aqeeda is based on the beliefs of the majority of the scholars and not just a single sect.
9) I think that the Salafis are thinking that they are better than the scholars that were present before and better than such scholars whose books are read by both the salafis and the sunnis till date.
10) I also would like to know that if a person now goes to the grave of our beloved Prophet sualalaahualaihewasallam and says O Prophet make dua to Allah that he forgives us. Is this act Haraam, Mustahab or Jayaz.
11) The quranic verse : Surah Nisa 4.64
We sent not an Apostle but to be obeyed in accordance with the will of Allah. If they had only when they were unjust to themselves come
unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness and the Apostle had asked forgiveness for them they would have found Allah indeed Oft-Returning
most Merciful.
Allah has not limited this ayat just during the lifetime of our Prophet sualallahualaihewasallam and because of this Ayat all the hadees that are recorded in the different tafsirs are termed to be accepted as long as it is in accordance to this ayat.
12) Remember what Salafi scholar Albani says:
Imaam Ahmad allowed tawassul by means of the Messenger alone, and others such as Imaam ash-Shawkaanee allowed tawassul by means of him and other Prophets and the Pious. However we, as is the case in all matters where there is disagreement, follow whatever is supported by the proof whatever that is, without blindly sticking to the opinions of men." [al-Albani, At-Tawassul p. 38]
I ask what was the aqeeda of Imaam Ahmed and Imaam ASh-Shawkaanee?
---
Marij Wasti
You were not able to answer a simple question of mine in my previous post. Rather you said I think I should'nt even reply to your stupidity here. Good job to escape. If asking questions is stupidity then we all are stupid who are asking questions on this forum.
As you said before I would like to ask you two questions before I can reply, inshallah.
Have you studied Hadeeth science or have background about it?
Which Fiqh Madhab are you following, may allah preserve you? i.e. Hanafi, Shafi'e, Maliki or Hanbali
Are these not questions?
Anyways people here knows who is running from the topic.
We all comit mistakes and can you please tell me who has writen the book Majmua AL Zuwaid? Just for my future refference as I am not a scolar.
Regarding your point "That does'nt mean that whatever the scholar includes is sahih" See how you are running away from the question.
I asked if Imam Darimi is heading a chapter as "Allah's generosity to His Prophet after his death" what will be his Aqeeda? I am not discussing whether the hadees is Sahi or Not but rather producing a fact that the scholars like Imam Darimi did not think like the todays salafis.
More over Imam Darimi gave a title to a hadees which you people say is week?
So this inturn prooves that Imam Darimi accepted week hadees to proove Fadilat of our beloved Nabisualalahualaihewasallam ! Alhumdolillahe.
Who is questioning whether the hadees included by a scholar has to be only SAHI?
Your statement : "Sanad is in deen. Ibn Hajr only said that it is authentic upto Abu Salih as Saman excluding Malik al dar!"
Which book says Sanad is deen? please produce your proof if you are truthfull.
Please also quote the refference for your statement "Ibn Hajr only said that it is authentic upto Abu Salih as Saman excluding Malik al dar!"
I am here not talking about some tafsirs rather those tafsirs which are read by salafis as well as sunnis. Like the example of Imam Qurtubiwhere he gives only one hadees in explaning the ayat!!!!!
My statment : "You do not accept something which is abondened by the scholar like your statement "Imaam Nasaa’ee and other said, Munkar al-hadeeth, abandoned in hadeeth" but when they give a hadees in refference to their tafsir you say we do not accept. Why double standards. "
I wanted to ask is if some one says the hadees is week we accept it trusting the scholar which is indeed following the scholars blindly based on their view then why don't we accept the things that they say as per their belief? cause they have deduced the same beliefs based on their analysis and grading of hadees!!
And our Aqeedah is upon the majority of the salaf. The three blessed generations Alhamdulillah! Does Imam Abu haneefa is also a part of the generations which you have mentioned or not?
"Salafis don't blindly follow any scholar." that is the reason none of the scholar is saved from the salafi slander.
I asked a simple question: " I also would like to know that if a person now goes to the grave of our beloved Prophet sualalaahualaihewasallam and says O Prophet make dua to Allah that he forgives us. Is this act Haraam, Mustahab or Jayaz." and your reply is like someone who cannot answer anything GOOD JOB!
Quranic verse : 4.64 "We sent not an Apostle but to be obeyed in accordance with the will of Allah. If they had only when they were unjust to themselves come
unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness and the Apostle had asked forgiveness for them they would have found Allah indeed Oft-Returning
most Merciful. "
You proove it to me that it was limited only for the time when our Prophet suallalahualaihewasallam was alive.
Wow and now the BOMB :
Seriously I have'nt found any sanad all the way back to Imam Ahmad for this statement attributed to him and if you have found any then please enlighten me. And it was not the tawassul which is being promoted by you!
Brother I gave a refference from Albaani's own book and you are demanding sanad for the same? good job so now even Albaani is doing what the other scholars do. This is truth. Albaani is also not saved from your slander.
Imaam Ahmad allowed tawassul by means of the Messenger alone, and others such as Imaam ash-Shawkaanee allowed tawassul by means of him and other Prophets and the Pious. However we, as is the case in all matters where there is disagreement, follow whatever is supported by the proof whatever that is, without blindly sticking to the opinions of men."
[al-Albani, At-Tawassul p. 38]
Who knows the deen well now? the so called Salafis have also left their own scholar?
I know that after this you people will start ignoring my views or My Id will be blocked so readers please be aware that the salafis always feel that they are right and all the scholars are wrong when indeed the scholars themselves gave us the science of hadees and the way of understanding the hadees!!
You were not able to answer a simple question of mine in my previous post. Rather you said I think I should'nt even reply to your stupidity here. Good job to escape. If asking questions is stupidity then we all are stupid who are asking questions on this forum.
As you said before I would like to ask you two questions before I can reply, inshallah.
Have you studied Hadeeth science or have background about it?
Which Fiqh Madhab are you following, may allah preserve you? i.e. Hanafi, Shafi'e, Maliki or Hanbali
Are these not questions?
Anyways people here knows who is running from the topic.
We all comit mistakes and can you please tell me who has writen the book Majmua AL Zuwaid? Just for my future refference as I am not a scolar.
Regarding your point "That does'nt mean that whatever the scholar includes is sahih" See how you are running away from the question.
I asked if Imam Darimi is heading a chapter as "Allah's generosity to His Prophet after his death" what will be his Aqeeda? I am not discussing whether the hadees is Sahi or Not but rather producing a fact that the scholars like Imam Darimi did not think like the todays salafis.
More over Imam Darimi gave a title to a hadees which you people say is week?
So this inturn prooves that Imam Darimi accepted week hadees to proove Fadilat of our beloved Nabisualalahualaihewasallam ! Alhumdolillahe.
Who is questioning whether the hadees included by a scholar has to be only SAHI?
Your statement : "Sanad is in deen. Ibn Hajr only said that it is authentic upto Abu Salih as Saman excluding Malik al dar!"
Which book says Sanad is deen? please produce your proof if you are truthfull.
Please also quote the refference for your statement "Ibn Hajr only said that it is authentic upto Abu Salih as Saman excluding Malik al dar!"
I am here not talking about some tafsirs rather those tafsirs which are read by salafis as well as sunnis. Like the example of Imam Qurtubiwhere he gives only one hadees in explaning the ayat!!!!!
My statment : "You do not accept something which is abondened by the scholar like your statement "Imaam Nasaa’ee and other said, Munkar al-hadeeth, abandoned in hadeeth" but when they give a hadees in refference to their tafsir you say we do not accept. Why double standards. "
I wanted to ask is if some one says the hadees is week we accept it trusting the scholar which is indeed following the scholars blindly based on their view then why don't we accept the things that they say as per their belief? cause they have deduced the same beliefs based on their analysis and grading of hadees!!
And our Aqeedah is upon the majority of the salaf. The three blessed generations Alhamdulillah! Does Imam Abu haneefa is also a part of the generations which you have mentioned or not?
"Salafis don't blindly follow any scholar." that is the reason none of the scholar is saved from the salafi slander.
I asked a simple question: " I also would like to know that if a person now goes to the grave of our beloved Prophet sualalaahualaihewasallam and says O Prophet make dua to Allah that he forgives us. Is this act Haraam, Mustahab or Jayaz." and your reply is like someone who cannot answer anything GOOD JOB!
Quranic verse : 4.64 "We sent not an Apostle but to be obeyed in accordance with the will of Allah. If they had only when they were unjust to themselves come
unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness and the Apostle had asked forgiveness for them they would have found Allah indeed Oft-Returning
most Merciful. "
You proove it to me that it was limited only for the time when our Prophet suallalahualaihewasallam was alive.
Wow and now the BOMB :
Seriously I have'nt found any sanad all the way back to Imam Ahmad for this statement attributed to him and if you have found any then please enlighten me. And it was not the tawassul which is being promoted by you!
Brother I gave a refference from Albaani's own book and you are demanding sanad for the same? good job so now even Albaani is doing what the other scholars do. This is truth. Albaani is also not saved from your slander.
Imaam Ahmad allowed tawassul by means of the Messenger alone, and others such as Imaam ash-Shawkaanee allowed tawassul by means of him and other Prophets and the Pious. However we, as is the case in all matters where there is disagreement, follow whatever is supported by the proof whatever that is, without blindly sticking to the opinions of men."
[al-Albani, At-Tawassul p. 38]
Who knows the deen well now? the so called Salafis have also left their own scholar?
I know that after this you people will start ignoring my views or My Id will be blocked so readers please be aware that the salafis always feel that they are right and all the scholars are wrong when indeed the scholars themselves gave us the science of hadees and the way of understanding the hadees!!
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starting with "وروى ابن أبي شيبة بإسناد صحيح من رواية أبي صالح السمان عن مالك الداري
(فتح الباري)"
Marij Wasti
Please show me where in this statement it states "Ibn Hajr only said that it is authentic upto Abu Salih as Saman excluding Malik al dar!
More over Ibn Kathīr has confirmed the soundness of its transmission in al-Bidāyah wan-nihāyah (5:167). Ibn Abū Khaythamah narrated it with the same chain of transmission as quoted by Ibn Hajar ‘Asqalānī in al-Isābah fī tamyīz-is-sahābah (3:484), while the latter writes in Fath-ul-bārī (2:495-6): “Ibn Abū Shaybah transmitted it with a sound chain of transmission and Sayf bin ‘Umar Tamīmī has recorded it in al-Futūh-ul-kabīr that the dreamer was a Companion known as Bilāl bin Hārith Muzanī.” Qastallānī has remarked in al-Mawāhib-ul-laduniyyah (4:276) that Ibn Abū Shaybah has narrated it with a sound chain of transmission while Zurqānī has supported Qastallānī in his Commentary (11:150-1).
Now what does Ibn Hajr ASqalani says about Malik Al Dar:
Malik ibn `Iyad: `Umar's freedman. He is the one named Malik al-Dar. He has seen the Prophet and has heard narrations from Abu Bakr al-Siddiq. He has narrated from Abu Bakr and `Umar, Mu`adh, and Abu `Ubayda. From him narrated Abu Salih al-Saman and his (Malik's) two sons `Awn and `Abd Allah...Bukhari in his Tarikh narrated through Abu Salih Dhakwan from Malik al-Dar that `Umar said during the period of drought: "O my Lord, I spare no effort except in what escapes my power!" Ibn Abi Khaythama also narrated it in those words but in a longer hadith:The people suffered a drought during the time of `Umar, whereupon a man came to the grave of the Prophet and said: "O Messenger of Allah, ask Allah for rain for your Community." The Prophet appeared to him in a dream and told him: "Go, see `Umar and tell him: You will be watered, and: You must put your nose to the grindstone (`alayk al-kaffayn)!" (The man went and told `Umar.) Then `Umar wept and exclaimed: "O my Lord, I spare no effort except in what escapes my power!"We have also narrated in the Fawa'id of Dawud ibn `Amr and al-Dabbi compiled by al-Baghawi in the narration of `Abd al-Rahman ibn Sa`id ibn Yarbu` al-Makhzumi from Malik al-Dar: he said: "`Umar ibn al-Khattab summoned me one day. He had with him a purse of gold containing four hundred dinars. He said: "Take this to Abu `Ubayda," and he mentioned the rest of the story.Ibn Sa`d mentioned him (Malik al-Dar) in the first layer of the Successors among the people of Madina and said: "He narrated from Abu Bakr and `Umar, and he was known." Abu `Ubayda said of him: "`Umar put him in charge of the dependents in his household. When `Uthman succeeded him, he put him in charge of financial allotments and he was then named Malik of the House."Isma`il al-Qadi related from `Ali ibn al-Madini: "Malik al-Dar was `Umar's treasurer.""
Ibn Hajar ‘Asqalānī, al-Isābah fī tamyīz-is-sahābah (3:484-5)
Hope this will clarify some things....
Now back to Abu Najm Muhammed
Thanks for letting me know the following "Nuur ad-Deen al-Haythaamee wrote the book 'Majmuu' az-Zawaa'id'
So now my question is "Nuur ad-Deen al-Haythaamee named the chapter as باب ما يحصل لأمته صلى الله عليه وسلم من استغفاره بعد وفاته
asking istigfaar for the ummah after death
What was the aqeeda of Nuur ad-Deen al-Haythaamee when he headed this title using a week hadees according to salafi?
You said "The sanad or chain of the narration may have weakness in it, but the 'ittibar or expression it contains is not weak as I mentioned above, the belief indicated by the text of the narration and its chapter title are affirmed by other than it from the authentic narrations.
Brother, everyone accepts weak narrations for indicating the merits and raising the status of the Prophets, Messengers and the Righteous. However we are all agreed upon the necessity of mentioning the weakness and having this accompany the narrations. The scholars of narrations also require that the weak narrations not be used to indicate rulings ('ahkaam) or beliefs ('aqaa'id) contrary to what is established by stronger than it.
Thank you very much for clarifying that: "Brother, everyone accepts weak narrations for indicating the merits and raising the status of the Prophets, Messengers and the Righteous."
So now its crystal clear that we can accept the weak hadees as discussed in this thread as it is raising the merits andstatus of our beloved Nabi kareem sualalahualaihewasallam Alhumdolillahe.
then why are we still busy posting a reply about the hadees being daeef when it is raising the status of our beloved Nabisualalahualaihewasallam.
Your statment "The statement 'sanad is deen' is from the statements of the 'Abd Allah bin al-Mubaarak, may Allah have mercy on him, and can be found as among the meanings contained in statements from the Salaf as-Saalih in general."
Good job i wanted to ask you, is Abd Allah bin al-Mubaarak our Nabi Maz Allah? then how can we follow what he says? is this not innovation in religion. Do i take it that salafis also follow a scholar's innovation? Think please....
Easy way to run by saying "Can you show me more than one occassion where 'Imaam al-Qurtubee used only one narration to explain an 'Ayah of the Qur'aan? Brother this one occasion is produced because it is related to the topic in discussion!!!! and why cant you say a simple thing that indeed a scholar when he writes a tafsir giving only one hadees for the explanation of quranic verse it is his aqeeda if not then he would have given a different one.
You think that discussing such issues in controversial where as the entire thread which you are replying to is controversial?
Is this thread to discuss the weakness of the hadees?
IF you check from the begening Um Abdullah is using her logical arguments to make us understand the hadees and I have replied logically for which I am waiting for an answer. I can see that she is busy but I shall wait.
( Forum discussion on ahlahdeeth: Here )
(فتح الباري)"
Marij Wasti
Please show me where in this statement it states "Ibn Hajr only said that it is authentic upto Abu Salih as Saman excluding Malik al dar!
More over Ibn Kathīr has confirmed the soundness of its transmission in al-Bidāyah wan-nihāyah (5:167). Ibn Abū Khaythamah narrated it with the same chain of transmission as quoted by Ibn Hajar ‘Asqalānī in al-Isābah fī tamyīz-is-sahābah (3:484), while the latter writes in Fath-ul-bārī (2:495-6): “Ibn Abū Shaybah transmitted it with a sound chain of transmission and Sayf bin ‘Umar Tamīmī has recorded it in al-Futūh-ul-kabīr that the dreamer was a Companion known as Bilāl bin Hārith Muzanī.” Qastallānī has remarked in al-Mawāhib-ul-laduniyyah (4:276) that Ibn Abū Shaybah has narrated it with a sound chain of transmission while Zurqānī has supported Qastallānī in his Commentary (11:150-1).
Now what does Ibn Hajr ASqalani says about Malik Al Dar:
Malik ibn `Iyad: `Umar's freedman. He is the one named Malik al-Dar. He has seen the Prophet and has heard narrations from Abu Bakr al-Siddiq. He has narrated from Abu Bakr and `Umar, Mu`adh, and Abu `Ubayda. From him narrated Abu Salih al-Saman and his (Malik's) two sons `Awn and `Abd Allah...Bukhari in his Tarikh narrated through Abu Salih Dhakwan from Malik al-Dar that `Umar said during the period of drought: "O my Lord, I spare no effort except in what escapes my power!" Ibn Abi Khaythama also narrated it in those words but in a longer hadith:The people suffered a drought during the time of `Umar, whereupon a man came to the grave of the Prophet and said: "O Messenger of Allah, ask Allah for rain for your Community." The Prophet appeared to him in a dream and told him: "Go, see `Umar and tell him: You will be watered, and: You must put your nose to the grindstone (`alayk al-kaffayn)!" (The man went and told `Umar.) Then `Umar wept and exclaimed: "O my Lord, I spare no effort except in what escapes my power!"We have also narrated in the Fawa'id of Dawud ibn `Amr and al-Dabbi compiled by al-Baghawi in the narration of `Abd al-Rahman ibn Sa`id ibn Yarbu` al-Makhzumi from Malik al-Dar: he said: "`Umar ibn al-Khattab summoned me one day. He had with him a purse of gold containing four hundred dinars. He said: "Take this to Abu `Ubayda," and he mentioned the rest of the story.Ibn Sa`d mentioned him (Malik al-Dar) in the first layer of the Successors among the people of Madina and said: "He narrated from Abu Bakr and `Umar, and he was known." Abu `Ubayda said of him: "`Umar put him in charge of the dependents in his household. When `Uthman succeeded him, he put him in charge of financial allotments and he was then named Malik of the House."Isma`il al-Qadi related from `Ali ibn al-Madini: "Malik al-Dar was `Umar's treasurer.""
Ibn Hajar ‘Asqalānī, al-Isābah fī tamyīz-is-sahābah (3:484-5)
Hope this will clarify some things....
Now back to Abu Najm Muhammed
Thanks for letting me know the following "Nuur ad-Deen al-Haythaamee wrote the book 'Majmuu' az-Zawaa'id'
So now my question is "Nuur ad-Deen al-Haythaamee named the chapter as باب ما يحصل لأمته صلى الله عليه وسلم من استغفاره بعد وفاته
asking istigfaar for the ummah after death
What was the aqeeda of Nuur ad-Deen al-Haythaamee when he headed this title using a week hadees according to salafi?
You said "The sanad or chain of the narration may have weakness in it, but the 'ittibar or expression it contains is not weak as I mentioned above, the belief indicated by the text of the narration and its chapter title are affirmed by other than it from the authentic narrations.
Brother, everyone accepts weak narrations for indicating the merits and raising the status of the Prophets, Messengers and the Righteous. However we are all agreed upon the necessity of mentioning the weakness and having this accompany the narrations. The scholars of narrations also require that the weak narrations not be used to indicate rulings ('ahkaam) or beliefs ('aqaa'id) contrary to what is established by stronger than it.
Thank you very much for clarifying that: "Brother, everyone accepts weak narrations for indicating the merits and raising the status of the Prophets, Messengers and the Righteous."
So now its crystal clear that we can accept the weak hadees as discussed in this thread as it is raising the merits andstatus of our beloved Nabi kareem sualalahualaihewasallam Alhumdolillahe.
then why are we still busy posting a reply about the hadees being daeef when it is raising the status of our beloved Nabisualalahualaihewasallam.
Your statment "The statement 'sanad is deen' is from the statements of the 'Abd Allah bin al-Mubaarak, may Allah have mercy on him, and can be found as among the meanings contained in statements from the Salaf as-Saalih in general."
Good job i wanted to ask you, is Abd Allah bin al-Mubaarak our Nabi Maz Allah? then how can we follow what he says? is this not innovation in religion. Do i take it that salafis also follow a scholar's innovation? Think please....
Easy way to run by saying "Can you show me more than one occassion where 'Imaam al-Qurtubee used only one narration to explain an 'Ayah of the Qur'aan? Brother this one occasion is produced because it is related to the topic in discussion!!!! and why cant you say a simple thing that indeed a scholar when he writes a tafsir giving only one hadees for the explanation of quranic verse it is his aqeeda if not then he would have given a different one.
You think that discussing such issues in controversial where as the entire thread which you are replying to is controversial?
Is this thread to discuss the weakness of the hadees?
IF you check from the begening Um Abdullah is using her logical arguments to make us understand the hadees and I have replied logically for which I am waiting for an answer. I can see that she is busy but I shall wait.
( Forum discussion on ahlahdeeth: Here )
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See how you cannot defend your own scholar (al-Albani) who said clearly the Aqeeda of Imam Ahmed.
Is Albaani weak so therefore you are rejecting his saying?
Is Albaani weak so therefore you are rejecting his saying?
cmmon you are not of your own people how can you be of the people of the Prophet sualallahualaihewasallam?
al-Albani said:
Imaam Ahmad allowed tawassul by means of the Messenger alone, and others such as Imaam ash-Shawkaanee allowedtawassul by means of him and other Prophets and the Pious.
However we, as is the case in all matters where there is disagreement, follow whatever is supported by the proof whatever that is, without blindly sticking to the opinions of men."
[al-Albani, At-Tawassul p. 38]
=======================================
Imaam Ahmad allowed tawassul by means of the Messenger alone, and others such as Imaam ash-Shawkaanee allowedtawassul by means of him and other Prophets and the Pious.
However we, as is the case in all matters where there is disagreement, follow whatever is supported by the proof whatever that is, without blindly sticking to the opinions of men."
[al-Albani, At-Tawassul p. 38]
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Narration of Malik al Dar, evidence for Tawassul by the living & not by the Prophet after his death
Quote: "I wrote this couple months ago, and posted it in my blog.
Logical Arguments
Quote: " (Note: The article has been replaced with the update version)"
Logical Arguments
Quote: " (Note: The article has been replaced with the update version)"
She is Still very... very busy:
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Major scholars who authenticated the narration from Malik al-Dar (be its sanad or its matn) :
Al-Hafiz ibn Kathir (d. 774 AH)
Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani (d. 852 AH)
Imam Al-Samhudi (d. 911 AH)
Imam Al-Qastallani (d. 923 AH)
Imam Ibn Hajar al-Haytami (d. 974 AH)
Amongst those that knew of this narration explicitly and mentioned it in either full, abridged format, or by agreeing or mentioning it to being authentic:
1) Imam Muhammad Ibn Allan al-Siddiqi (d. 1057 AH)
2) Shaykh Dawud ibn Sulayman al-Baghdadi al-Khalidi (d. 1299 AH)
3) Shaykh Ibrahim ibn Uthman al Samnudi al-Mansuri
4) Shaykh Jamil Effendi al-Zahawi (1355 AH)
5) Qadi Yusuf al-Nabhani (d. 1350 AH)
6) Shaykh Muhammad Zahid al-Kawthari (d. 1371 AH)
7) Shaykh Abdullah al-Ghumari (d. 1993 CE)
8) Sayyid Muhammad ibn Alawi al-Maliki al-Makki (d. 2004 CE)
9) Dr. Mahmud Sa’id Mamduh
10)Shaykh Wahbi ibn Sulayman Ghawiji (d. 2013 CE)
11)Shaykh Muhammad Awwama
12)Shaykh Abdullah al-Harari (d. 2008)
13)Shaykh Sarfraz Khan Safdar (d. 2009 CE)
14)Shaykh Yunus al-Jawnpuri
15)Shaykh Yusuf Khattar Muhammad
16)Dr Umar Abdullah Kamil
17)Shaykh Farid al-Baji al-Maliki
18)Shaykh Adil Murshid
19)Shaykh Nabil al-Ghamri
20)Shaykh Abdal Hadi Kharsa al-Dimashqi
21)Dr. Samir an-Nass al-Dimashqi
22)Shaykh Hussain Muhammad Ali Shukri
23)Shaykh Abduh Muhammad Jaan al-Na’imi
24)Dr. Isa al-Himyari
25)Shaykh Ali ibn Na’if al-Shahud
Those who transmitted or recorded the narration withoutexplicitly weakening it or rejecting it:
1) Imam Ali Ibn al-Madini (d. 234 AH)
2) Imam Abu Bakr Ibn Abi Shayba (d. 235 AH)
3) Imam Muhammad ibn Isma’il al-Bukhari (d. 256 AH)
4) Imam Ibn Abi Khaythama (d. 279 AH)
5) Imam Abu Ya’la al-Khalili (d. 446 AH)
6) Imam Abu Umar Ibn Abd al-Barr (d. 463 AH)
7) Imam al-Bayhaqi (d. 458 AH)
8) Imam Abul Qasim Ibn Asakir (d. 571 AH)
9) Imam Shamsud-Din al-Dhahabi (d. 748 AH)
10) Imam Taqiud Din al-Subki (d. 756 AH)
11) Imam Taqiud Din al-Hisni (d. 829 AH)
12) Imam al-Suyuti (d. 911 AH)
13) Imam Ali al-Muttaqi al-Hindi (d. 975AH)
14) Imam Muhammad ibn Abdal Baqi al-Zarqani al-Maliki (d. 1122 AH)
15) Shah Waliullah Dehlawi (d. 1176 AH/1763 CE)
16) Imam Muhammad Abid al-Sindi (d. 1257 AH)
17) Shaykh Abdal Ghani al-Dehlawi (d. 1296 AH)
18) Shaykh Mustafa ibn Ahmad al-Shatti al-Hanbali (1857-1929 CE)
19) Shaykh Muhammad Zakariyya Kandehlawi al-Madani (d. 1982 CE)
20) Shaykh Muhammad Abdal Hakim Sharaf
21) Dr. Umar Mas’ud al-Tijani
22) Shaykh Ali ibn Muhammad ibn Tahir ibn Yahya
23) Shaykh Sa’eed Fawda
Al-Hafiz ibn Kathir (d. 774 AH)
Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani (d. 852 AH)
Imam Al-Samhudi (d. 911 AH)
Imam Al-Qastallani (d. 923 AH)
Imam Ibn Hajar al-Haytami (d. 974 AH)
Amongst those that knew of this narration explicitly and mentioned it in either full, abridged format, or by agreeing or mentioning it to being authentic:
1) Imam Muhammad Ibn Allan al-Siddiqi (d. 1057 AH)
2) Shaykh Dawud ibn Sulayman al-Baghdadi al-Khalidi (d. 1299 AH)
3) Shaykh Ibrahim ibn Uthman al Samnudi al-Mansuri
4) Shaykh Jamil Effendi al-Zahawi (1355 AH)
5) Qadi Yusuf al-Nabhani (d. 1350 AH)
6) Shaykh Muhammad Zahid al-Kawthari (d. 1371 AH)
7) Shaykh Abdullah al-Ghumari (d. 1993 CE)
8) Sayyid Muhammad ibn Alawi al-Maliki al-Makki (d. 2004 CE)
9) Dr. Mahmud Sa’id Mamduh
10)Shaykh Wahbi ibn Sulayman Ghawiji (d. 2013 CE)
11)Shaykh Muhammad Awwama
12)Shaykh Abdullah al-Harari (d. 2008)
13)Shaykh Sarfraz Khan Safdar (d. 2009 CE)
14)Shaykh Yunus al-Jawnpuri
15)Shaykh Yusuf Khattar Muhammad
16)Dr Umar Abdullah Kamil
17)Shaykh Farid al-Baji al-Maliki
18)Shaykh Adil Murshid
19)Shaykh Nabil al-Ghamri
20)Shaykh Abdal Hadi Kharsa al-Dimashqi
21)Dr. Samir an-Nass al-Dimashqi
22)Shaykh Hussain Muhammad Ali Shukri
23)Shaykh Abduh Muhammad Jaan al-Na’imi
24)Dr. Isa al-Himyari
25)Shaykh Ali ibn Na’if al-Shahud
Those who transmitted or recorded the narration withoutexplicitly weakening it or rejecting it:
1) Imam Ali Ibn al-Madini (d. 234 AH)
2) Imam Abu Bakr Ibn Abi Shayba (d. 235 AH)
3) Imam Muhammad ibn Isma’il al-Bukhari (d. 256 AH)
4) Imam Ibn Abi Khaythama (d. 279 AH)
5) Imam Abu Ya’la al-Khalili (d. 446 AH)
6) Imam Abu Umar Ibn Abd al-Barr (d. 463 AH)
7) Imam al-Bayhaqi (d. 458 AH)
8) Imam Abul Qasim Ibn Asakir (d. 571 AH)
9) Imam Shamsud-Din al-Dhahabi (d. 748 AH)
10) Imam Taqiud Din al-Subki (d. 756 AH)
11) Imam Taqiud Din al-Hisni (d. 829 AH)
12) Imam al-Suyuti (d. 911 AH)
13) Imam Ali al-Muttaqi al-Hindi (d. 975AH)
14) Imam Muhammad ibn Abdal Baqi al-Zarqani al-Maliki (d. 1122 AH)
15) Shah Waliullah Dehlawi (d. 1176 AH/1763 CE)
16) Imam Muhammad Abid al-Sindi (d. 1257 AH)
17) Shaykh Abdal Ghani al-Dehlawi (d. 1296 AH)
18) Shaykh Mustafa ibn Ahmad al-Shatti al-Hanbali (1857-1929 CE)
19) Shaykh Muhammad Zakariyya Kandehlawi al-Madani (d. 1982 CE)
20) Shaykh Muhammad Abdal Hakim Sharaf
21) Dr. Umar Mas’ud al-Tijani
22) Shaykh Ali ibn Muhammad ibn Tahir ibn Yahya
23) Shaykh Sa’eed Fawda
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Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal & Tawassul -
The following is evidence of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal’s approval of tawassul through our beloved Prophet (peace & blessings upon him):
“Imam Ahmad made tawassul through the Prophet a part of every du`a according to the following report:
`Ala
“The correct position of the [Hanbali] madhhab is that it is permissible in one’s supplication (du`a) to use as one’s means a pious person, and it is said that it is desirable (mustahabb). Imam Ahmad said to Abu Bakr al-Marwazi:
“yatawassalu bi al-nabi fi du`a’ih”
(“Let him use the Prophet as a means in his supplication to Allah.”)
(“Let him use the Prophet as a means in his supplication to Allah.”)
The same report is found in Imam Ahmad’s Manasik as narrated by his student Abu Bakr al-Marwazi. Similarly the lengthy wording of the tawassul according to the Hanbali madhhab as established by the hafiz Ibn `Aqil in his Tadhkira was cited fully by Imam Kawthari in his appendix to Shaykh al-Islam Taqi al-Din al-Subki’s al-Sayf al-saqil included in Kawthari’s edition of the latter.”
Read more: Here
IMAM MALIK RECOMMENDS TAWASSUL WITH THEINHABITANTS OF JANNATUL BAQI
The Maliki scholar, Ibn Farhun (d. 799) , in his book “Irshad alSalik” (Pg 592) writes:
وذکر عن مالک أن فی البقیع من الصحابة-رضی الله عنهم- عشرة الافصحابی و أما کبار التابعین وتابع تابعین فما یحصیهم الا الله تعالی ،فینبغی السلام علیهم والدعاء لهم والتوسل بهم الی الله تعالی
Rough translation: It is narrated from Imam Malik that in Baqi are thousands of Sahabah, Tabi’in and Taba’ at-Tabi’in. One should greet them, pray for them and take them as a recourse/intercessor/means (tawassul) to Allah Ta’ala.
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Imam Dhahabi narrates:
Once there was a drought in Samarqand, People tried their best, some said Salat al Istisqa but still it did not rain, A renowned righteous man known as Salih came to the Qadhi and said: In my opinion you along with your public should visit the grave of Imam Bukhari (rah), His grave is located in Khartank, We should (go near the Qabr) and ask for rain, Allah might give us rain then, The Qadhi said Yes to his opinion and then he along with the people went towards (the Qabr) and then He made a dua along with the people and people started to cry near the grave and started to make him a Waseela (i.e. Imam Bukhari). Allah Ta’ala (immediately) sent rain clouds.
[Siyar al A'lam wa al Nubalah, Volume 012, Page No. 469]
[Siyar al A'lam wa al Nubalah, Volume 012, Page No. 469]
Imam Bulqini also declares this tradition “sound” in his Fatawa.
Imam Subki confirms Hakim's authentication in [Shifa-us-siqam fi ziyarat khayr-il-anam Page No. 120-1]
Grave of Imam Bukhari (rah)
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